Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Unfastened Belts 8/1/2021 4:53 PM

Kinda

I don't fully believe in anything, nor do I plan to

1

otherwise would we even be here practicing our craft ?

I would specifically want to avoid this channel becoming a sounding board or echo chamber.

i do care if what others believe is true though

Yes, that matters. Do you want your doctor to believe in faith healing?

I don't even fully believe that I don't fully believe anything; I might fully believe something and just not realize it

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

i do care if what others believe is true though

Why?

unfortunately if anything can be true and not be challenged, that's how we end up with antivaxxers and flat earthers

4:54 PM

education system failed us

4:55 PM

there are already practical problems because of people being ok with believing anything

4:56 PM

i don't know how you can be ok with it

So to name a concrete recent example. What harm is there in someone believing that they can feel the mood of plants?

4:57 PM

They were immediately ridiculed as "oh, I can feel the mood of stones and lamps and mountains, too"

The former or the latter?

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

there are already practical problems because of people being ok with believing anything

thats just same as not beliving anything too!!!

Unfastened Belts

They were immediately ridiculed as "oh, I can feel the mood of stones and lamps and mountains, too"

BUT I DO !

4:57 PM

i wasn't joking

Hmmmmmmmm

it's a psychological process though

4:57 PM

animism is real

but is better described as anthropomorphism.

if you believe in something without a way of testing it or even willingness to test it, and you end up in echo chamber where everyone is supposed to pat you on the head for believing in it without being challenged, they will believe in anything

4:58 PM

even vaccines causing 5G

well plants do have there own sensory system so yup they feel~ (edited)

1

if only getting vaccinated was able to make the internet connection of my phone faster

1

Plants have no brain or central nervous system.

4:59 PM

They do not feel things as you understand the word.

Breloomancer

if only getting vaccinated was able to make the internet connection of my phone faster

yeah i was disappointed it didn't work for me

i mean nanothech!! iron man has it

Its a pretty big leap from "I can feel the mood of plants" to "oh, so you probably believe that 5G causes people to get vaccinated"

you would hope so

Zen

They do not feel things as you understand the word.

The first statement is true, the second is entirely speculative

When my tendons are cut, even if I do not feel it, physiologically my fingers will slacken. This is a response. Plants respond, but there is not evidence they compute.

what do you know shots can get u 5g in the future

Zen

When my tendons are cut, even if I do not feel it, physiologically my fingers will slacken. This is a response. Plants respond, but there is not evidence they compute.

there are , just not like us

Unfastened Belts

The first statement is true, the second is entirely speculative

Why? Is not our sense entirely dependent on having a central nervous system - that thing which feels?

to me it is possible that even atoms, cells, galaxies could feel just seeing how emergence in the universe happens, but we have no ways of testing it the difference between me and metaphysical claims is that i say that "it could", rather than "this is how it is"

for example roots and leave branches etc network growth system is kind of comupation too

1

Zen

Why? Is not our sense entirely dependent on having a central nervous system - that thing which feels?

no

5:02 PM

there are alternatives

Again, on what basis.

on existing biology

Just because something has complexity doesn't mean it's thinking.

5:02 PM

That's blatant animism.

do realy want an expanded discussion on this one?

Zen

Why? Is not our sense entirely dependent on having a central nervous system - that thing which feels?

Ours, sure

5:03 PM

How do you know the same is true for plants?

An organism growing in the direction of food, for instance is entirely capable of being autonomous but without sense or thought.

Have you ever been a plant?

5:03 PM

You can say it's likely that they don't feel, but it's still entirely speculation

I disagree, feel is a verb we apply to a particular sensory input in brains.

intelligence and sense can be possible on entire diffrent architechture tooo leave alone , just lack of nerves

that also specifically requires central nervous systems.

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

to me it is possible that even atoms, cells, galaxies could feel just seeing how emergence in the universe happens, but we have no ways of testing it the difference between me and metaphysical claims is that i say that "it could", rather than "this is how it is"

I like that first thing you said

And exactly! I think you and Zen tend to come at it from a completely different angle than the people speaking up here

man for example chemical bassed info network like our ancient hormones and such

5:05 PM

hive networks

But emergent intelligences are not immediately co-equal.

and even something as complex as social entaraction

5:05 PM

ofc they arent

They are the sum of their parts. Would you truly describe human government as an intelligent in the same way as an individual human?

The person was saying "I can feel the mood of plants", not "I have scientifically tested and proven that human beings can feel the mood of plants"

That's an emergent intelligence.

5:06 PM

But it feels no pain, and is even more shortsighted.

but its sufficently robust

Plants don't have moods.

Btw forget plants, if any non-animal organisms are "sentient", it'll be mushrooms

Zen

Plants don't have moods.

I might as well call this an untestable metaphysical claim

True that. But it's a matter of them being a unified collective intelligence. (edited)

Zen

Plants don't have moods.

i wont say moods but simply respondinf to stimulus makes for a nascent awareness

1

5:07 PM

mechanism

immortalbeggar

i wont say moods but simply respondinf to stimulus makes for a nascent awareness

Why? When I strike a rock and it breaks is it somehow aware because it's shattered?

5:07 PM

That's a response to stimulus.

groans

Zen

That's an emergent intelligence.

isn't all intelligence an emergent property?

noh thats an event at most

5:08 PM

of collosion

Let me put it more simply than Breloo did

5:08 PM

Discussing metaphysics with Zen is no fun!

Breloomancer

isn't all intelligence an emergent property?

Yes, that's the secret. But I was specifically saying our emergent intelligences weren't equal

5:09 PM

To automatically equate how they work is anthropomorphism.

ofc but it helps us to keeep on dishing it out

doesn't mean that it can't feel

Of course not. But where is the feel?

5:09 PM

Show me the plant feels bre.

5:09 PM

pls.

5:09 PM

I can point to my feels.

where is the feel in humans? I'll show you the plant feel after you show me the human feel

They're electrical impulses and chemicals.

5:10 PM

That go through a particular body-wide organ called the central nervous system.

ok that touch me not creeper and those insectivoras ones should be sufficent for u zen

Zen

They're electrical impulses and chemicals.

How do you know that those are identical with the emotions as we experience them?

5:11 PM

And not just, say, strongly related to them

Zen

That go through a particular body-wide organ called the central nervous system.

at its core any thing living is actualy an super intelligent construct alright!

1

well I don't know about the plant feel then, but the government feel is in the form of vibrating air and various sorts of recordings of these air vibrations

we can talk about our feels

5:12 PM

can plants?

Unfastened Belts

And not just, say, strongly related to them

That's entirely possible, but I would expect this to be a truth derived from a corollary scan of a brain, showing that there was a secondary impulse within it in response to the nervous system response.

5:12 PM

Rather than just "Oh all things have feeeeels"